Marketplace Leaders
Posted by ljoh3106 on October 13, 2006
The Marketplace Leaders ministry of Os Hillman exists to help men and women to fulfill God’s call on their lives by understanding the role faith plays in their workplace calling.
The ministry goals are described as: to bring revival in the workplace, to help business people see their work as their calling and ministry, to engage more workplace Christians in the ‘work of the ministry’, and to see the power of God manifested in the workplace.
Toward these goals, their website is full of useful resources and they publish a daily devotional called ‘Today God is First’ or TGIF. I encourage everyone in the workplace to see it as one of their ministries. Its not always easy. The resources and devotionals provided by Marketplace Leaders can help. Click on the Faith @ Work link on the right sidebar to go to their website and subscribe to the daily TGIF devotional.
Just looking said
Are you saying that christians should be proseltizing at the work place?
Just looking said
Does anyone read these replies
Larry said
Just Looking,
The ministry described above has a goal of helping Christians in the businessplace live out their Christian beliefs. I don’t see them advocating proselytizing but there is certainly no problem sharing your faith at the right time and place.
Like I said, they have resources available for downloading.
Maybe you should take a look at their website.
Blessings, Larry
Just looking said
Explain to me why it woud be hard to LIVE out YOUR beleifs? It seems that the way we live would in fact come from our beliefs. For example I think murder is wrong and certainly I am not interested the punishment for it, so I don’t do it.
Therefore my belief that murder is wrong causes me not to murder.
So can you explain to me what it means to “help someone live THEIR beleifs” it sounds more like you are encouraging people to live out a set of beleifs or something like that.
I will look forward to your reply.
Larry said
Just Looking,
Can you explain exactly what your complaint is against a ministry such as this? Why is this such a problem for you? Are you trying to make some kind of point?
This is one of several para-ministries with the goal of helping Christians who are in the marketplace make an impact on the people that are part of their job place. To be more precise, from my initial post: The ministry goals are described as: to bring revival in the workplace, to help business people see their work as their calling and ministry, to engage more workplace Christians in the ‘work of the ministry’, and to see the power of God manifested in the workplace.
I think that any positive impact we, as Christians, can make at work is a good thing.
Just looking said
You really don’t get it?
I am merely asking what the philosohy is behind it, if in fact some one does believe something then the way they live will be a natural outflow of that belief.
My point is that if you need to be trained how to live out your own belief system, then it really isn’t yours to begin with.
What is the end result? Is it to make you feel more spiritual, is it to make more converts for your churches? Is it to make money for the ‘ministry’ ?
You talk about the power of God manifested in the workplace, what does that mean? Are you expecting healings and coffee break prayer meetings? Or may be just a nice smile from a happy person?
Just be honest the entire idea is make converts.
Larry said
Its not as complicated as you make it sound.
The entire idea is not to make converts like you say. Its to introduce the Good News to people that may have no knowledge of Christ or what a personal relationship with Him can be like. Mark 13:10 tells us to proclaim the Good News to all the nations. If we tell people about Christ and our own personal relationship with Him, we are proclaiming the Good News.
One way ministries such Marketplace Leaders supports this is by encouraging men and women to be the kind of Christian that will be available to be used by God to proclaim this Good News.
I see this as such a basic Christian doctrine, I don’t understand why its hard for you to see if you are a Christian like you have said in our previous dialog.
This is not to insult you but to try to find common ground with each other.
Perhaps we could get together as Christian brothers to discuss this deeper. I know you are local so I hope you consider doing this.
Just looking said
The good news is that Jesus has saved the world, shall we get together and proclame the good news of the salvation of mankind?
In (Col. 1:16-20) it talks about all things being created by Christ. It says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM. In (verse 20) it says that ” by him to reconcile ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him I say, WHETHER THEY BE THINGS IN EARTH, OR THINGS IN HEAVEN”.
(Eph. 1:10) “That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN AND WHICH ARE IN EARTH; EVEN IN HIM”.
(Phil. 2:10-11) It says that “EVERY KNEE should bow, of THINGS IN HEAVEN, AND THINGS IN EARTH, AND THINGS UNDER THE EARTH.” EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD.
(Isaiah 45:22) Look unto me, and be ye SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.
(Heb. 2:9 ) should say “that he by the grace of God should taste death for everyone.”
Larry said
I am happy that you listed some verses that you feel evidence the idea of unlimited atonement. Perhaps you can answer some questions for me.
If everyone will be saved, there seems to be implication that there is no hell for those who reject Jesus. Then what does it mean in Phil. 2:11 “under the earth” if it is not speaking of those in hell.
In Luke 13:23 when Jesus was asked “Lord, are there few being saved?”, why didn’t He just come out and say that everyone would be saved? In the verses that follow, He says the opposite:
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you, many will try to enter and won’t be able once the homeowner gets up and shuts the door. Then you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up for us!’ He will answer you, ‘I don’t know you or where you’re from.’ Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets!’ But He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you or where you’re from. Get away from Me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’
(Luk 13:24-27)
It seems clear that He is answering the question directly.
Its easy to take verses out of context and make them mean what we want them to. I think Heb 2:9 is a good example. It is easy to see this as meaning unlimited salvation if thats what you are looking for but I believe it continues the writers efforts to show that Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile.
Do you have any verses where Jesus comes out and says that He is going to save everyone?
If what you say is true, although I don’t see strong evidence for it, and if you really believe it, why should it bother you that anyone else doesn’t believe it? I believe in the rapture but I don’t go around trying to convince everyone of it. I just want to be ready for an event that I believe is going to happen. If you or anyone else does not believe it, its ok with me. If the rapture is going to happen, everyone will be affected. So whats the point of trying to convince people of this doctrine if it is true?
But if it does matter to you, I’m still open to getting together to reason together as Christians.
Just looking said
Never said there was no hell, this is the problem when you assume you know something you know nothing about.
Perhaps you should do some homework and learn what Universalist teach before you attempt to prove us wrong.
http://www.universalistchurch.net
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/
Your assumptions are simply wrong.
Just looking said
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
Answers to 21 Anti-universalist Objections
Steve Jones
Objection 1: If universal restoration is true, why be a Christian now?
Answer: We ought to follow Jesus, first of all, because it is the right and good thing to do. Second, that we might enjoy a purpose in our existence, an abundant life, a freedom from the tyranny of evil and an escape from the mundane offerings of this world.
Objection 2: If all will be saved someday, why evangelize?
Answer: See the answer to the first objection.
Objection 3: Without the threat of endless hell, some people won’t respond to God or seek to do good. If universalism were revealed true, many Christians would give up the faith and live ungodly lives.
Answer: Such people are unworthy of the Christian name. They obey God as slaves under the lash, not as children seeking to live in the Father’s love. I refuse to allow them to drive my interpretation of human destiny.
Objection 4: Doesn’t justice demand that some people pay for their sins forever?
Answer: No. The wages of sin is death — we’ll all make that payment. But if God wishes to pardon all, what slight is that to His justice? I am commanded by Christ to forgive all who have offended me. Is that an injustice? If not, then why would it be unjust for God to do exactly what He expects of me?
Objection 5: The Bible contains language of exclusion. Some will “not see life” or have “no inheritance in the kingdom.” Others will “go away into eternal punishment.”
Answer: Yes, but the Bible also includes language of universal inclusiveness. Paul said that “every knee will bow” and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Objection 6: True. But for the wicked, that confession will not come from the heart — only from the almighty, subjugating power of Christ.
Answer: A coerced confession would not be “to the glory of God the Father.”
Objection 7: Still, doesn’t a lot of Scriptural language rule out universalism?
Answer: Evidently not. Only a few centuries after Christ, we have records of many scholarly Christians who spoke the New Testament language, used the same “exclusionary” and “condemnatory” phrases found in its pages — yet, they were open universalists.
Objection 8: If the authors of Scripture were universalists, why didn’t they just say it plainly? Why do they write things so apt to be misunderstood?
Answer: The Psalmist wrote, “All flesh will bless his holy name forever and ever.” (Psalm 145:21) How much plainer can you get than that? The same kind of language occurs in the New Testament. It is true, however, that the Bible is not a universalist catechism or primer. The latter Scriptures give us a glimpse into the faith of the early church, but not a full explanation of everything Christians believed from the ground up. The New Testament is concerned mainly with (1) the proclamation of Jesus as Messiah, (2) the proclamation of the long-awaited kingdom of God, (3) the healing of problems in the early churches. It does not answer all our eschatological queries with unmistakable plainness. Besides that, Paul tends to be difficult to understand — even another biblical author thought so. (2 Pet. 3:15-16)
Objection 9: Aren’t you just projecting wishful thinking onto the Bible?
Answer: I may be. But a thing is not false simply because we would like it to be true. The Christian message is supposed to be good news. Why not embrace the best news possible?
Objection 10: What if you’re wrong about this? What if universalism isn’t true?
Answer: Well, then I’m wrong. Any person with an ounce of humility will consider this a real possibility about a given belief. No one is infallible. But if I am wrong, I would rather err on the side of mercy than wrath. I would rather be guilty of making God too loving than too condemning.
Objection 11: Doesn’t universalism minimize the seriousness of sin?
Answer: Jesus told us to forgive everyone who has sinned against us. Does that minimize the seriousness of sin?
Objection 12: What about sins that are “unto death” or that will never be forgiven?
Answer: It is within the power of God to punish these offenses without inflicting either eternal torment or annihilation.
Objection 13: If universalism is true, that means Hitler will enjoy the same eternity as the most pious saint.
Answer: Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. That was the belief of Paul.
Objection 14: Are you denying that “it is appointed for men once to die, but after this the judgment”?
Answer: No. Some may have to face a fearful judgment on the other side of the grave and endure some retribution for what they have done. The universalist hope is that they will be reconciled eventually, that God may be “all in all.”
Objection 15: Isn’t the idea of reformation after death unbiblical?
Answer: No. It is biblically obscure, but not anti-biblical. Early Christians practiced a proxy baptism for the dead (1 Cor. 15:29). They also believed that after his crucifixion, Jesus preached to the dead imprisoned in hades (1 Pet. 3:19-20; 4:3-5). The Bible never tells us that it is “too late” for any change once we have died (contrary to the warnings of so many evangelists).
Objection 16: Jesus said that “God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.” (Matt. 10:28) Doesn’t that pretty much refute universalism?
Answer: To say that God has the power to do something is not the same thing as saying that He WILL do it. For example, John the Baptist declared that “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” (Matt. 3:10) No one expected that to happen, of course.
Jesus’ utterance is part of a send-off to his missionaries who were ready to preach the kingdom of God and face severe opposition. The point was this: Do not be consumed by the fear of men, but instead fear the one who truly holds the power of life and death. It need not be viewed as a definitive statement of “what happens when non-Christians die.”
Objection 17: Won’t people live carelessly if you teach such a thing?
Answer: I can’t help that. People live carelessly under the threat of endless torments, too.
Objection 18: Doesn’t universalism encourage the unbiblical notion of the “immortality of the soul.”
Answer: Some universalists believe in the immortality of the soul (as do many non-universalists). Some don’t. My opinion is this: The eternal life to come will be the result of the resurrection, the gift of Christ — not some undying component in the human personality.
Objection 19: Most Christians throughout the course of church history — and even today — would strongly disagree with you on universalism.
Answer: Majority vote does not determine truth. More often, it’s the other way around.
Objection 20: Calvinists tell us that God does not love all people.
Answer: He surely must. Jesus told us to love all people, even our enemies, and to do good toward them. God’s love is perfect and, therefore, must surpass ours — not fall below it.
Objection 21: Won’t the inclusion of everyone diminish the significance of salvation for the saints?
Answer: Why would it? Generally speaking, a big party is better than a small one.
Larry said
I guess I am too much of an orthodox believer to see any strong evidence for universalism in your list. The evidence is just not strong enough to convince me. But if this is what you want to believe, its between you and God.
But I am curious about how much of this you actually believe. You have stated quite frankly that you regard evangalism, at least by us, as simply proselytizing but the first and second answers seem to be saying that we still should be doing this. Why your objection?
All of this talks about how loving our God is, and I do believe He is. If you really believe that Jesus told us to love all people, even our enemies, why do many of your comments on these pages seem less than loving toward us. We are not enemies. Don’t we all love Christ? Is this the way you love your perceived enemies?
Just looking said
You are very good at pointing your finger aren’t you, very practiced at passing judgement when someone does not agree with you I see, always looking for that snag to pull and show the error of another ways.
I know that this is not going to convince you and I don’t really care, I was merely saying that before you begin to talk about something you should learn about it first. For example the idea that universalism implies no hell it not true, and is a false assumption made by you based on your ignorance of the univeralist teachings and the bible.
I am sure you have not even bothered to truely examine the teachings, as the bible says you should. Rather you hold to the same teachings you have clinging to for yearsa and will by nature continue to read them right back into the scripture, untill God shows you the truth.
And now you challenge me at the point of love, as if you knew a thing about what love is. In your narrow world, love means “as long as you do what I think you should do then I will be nice to you”
Believe me, I don’t care even the sligthest bit what you think. You are a false teacher and liar and why God wants you to do this work, is beyond me. I am praying now that he sends me somewhere else so I can stop waisting my time talking with you.
Just looking said
I see none of the “brothers” have any thing to say, I know very well that when someone is not fitting in your program you all just blow that one off.
Not a one of you should even dare be called Christians.
Hypocrites everyone of you.